How can elections take place when there is blood in the street? – Nawal El Saadawi

Cairo, Asharq Al-Awsat – Nawal El Saadawi is a leading Egyptian feminist, sociologist, and political activist.  In an exclusive interview with Asharq Al-Awsat, the Egyptian feminist author spoke about the 25 January revolution, the current political situation in Egypt, and her hopes for the future.

Nawal El Saadawi is one of the Arab world’s most famous feminists; she has written almost 40 novels, plays and collections of short stories, the majority of which tackles the problems women face in Egypt and across the world.  She has braved prison, exile, and death threats in her fight against female oppression, and she is considered one of the most widely translated contemporary Arab writers, with her work available in more than twelve languages.

The following is the full text of the interview:

[Asharq al-Awsat] How do you interpret the current political scene in Egypt?

[El Saadawi] To be frank, the political scene is very bad. I have been present since the first days of the revolution, and have experienced all the events from January and February, and most recently in November. Now I see plans to abort the revolution. Many counter-revolutionary forces appeared the moment that Mubarak stepped down. We were aware of that and we know that for every revolution there is a counter-revolution. For thirty years Mubarak’s men were present in all state institutions and they will not be silenced easily. They are also being supported by the same external powers that supported Mubarak. These internal forces represent the body of the regime whose head was overthrown in January, and they are now allied with external forces to abort the revolution. All that happened was that the head of the regime was sacrificed in order to keep the body intact, and I believe this was done with the consent of the US.

[Asharq al-Awsat] Doesn’t an outlook such as this represent an injustice to the parliamentary elections that are currently taking place?

[El Saadawi] (Laughing) Are we not doing an injustice to all those who over the past 30 years participated in fraudulent elections, with a fraudulent media and fraudulent press, alongside a fraudulent elite who used to applaud Mubarak, but who are now angrily cursing him?  Where is this democratic marriage that we have heard about? I am looking at Egypt from the outside, but I am living its reality on the inside. Both [U.S. President] Barack Obama and [U.S. Secretary of State] Hillary Clinton, at the height of the bloodshed in Tahrir Square and Mohamed Mahmoud Street, came out quickly to demand the holding of elections in Egypt.

[Asharq al-Awsat] What was the motive behind this demand, in your opinion?

[El Saadawi] Basically, [this was] because elections are able to cause divisions within society. Electoral conflict and the use of religion…this is what we have seen from the Islamists campaigns, namely that it is capable of dividing the people…conflict now has broken out within formerly united households and families.

[Asharq al-Awsat] But aren’t elections the only path to democracy?

[El Saadawi] Democracy is not merely elections. I think the electoral districts are being divided between the Islamists and the liberals, with the consent of the Supreme Council of the Armed Forces (SCAF). I am also not ruling out the US or Israel getting involved in the game, for they are all playing [a game]; the opposition, the elite, and the media.

[Asharq al-Awsat] The Islamist current won approximately two-thirds of the parliamentary seats being contested during the first phase of parliamentary elections, whilst these elections have seen the highest voter turnout in the history of Egyptian parliamentary elections. What do you think of this “reality”?  What direction is Egypt heading in?

[El Saadawi] My assessment of this “reality” is that it was planned in advance, and that Egypt is heading towards full submission to America and Israel.

[Asharq al-Awsat] Could you elaborate further on this?

[El Saadawi] What does “imperialist” America have to be frightened of from Egypt? The answer is a civil revolution for social justice, and Egypt truly becoming an independent state. This is the scenario that frightens Washington and Tel Aviv, and neither of them is prepared to leave this important part of the world so easily, and so they are using all the means at their disposal, in the same manner as they did with regards to the Iranian revolution. The Iranian revolution began as a civil, political and economic revolution to nationalize Iran’s oil industry, carried out by the followers of Dr. Mohammad Mosaddegh, in order to advance and develop Iranian society.  This revolution could have truly liberated the will of the entire region, but what happened was that they [Western forces] came with Khomeini and sent him by plane from Paris to Tehran, just as they sent us [Sheikh Yusuf] al-Qaradawi and the Salafists, who have suddenly appeared from out of nowhere.

[Asharq al-Awsat] Sheikh Yusuf al-Qaradawi is an Egyptian citizen, who returned to Egypt to witness the most important moments of transition in the history of his homeland.  Isn’t that his right?

[El Saadawi] I’m sorry, but I am not this naïve. What brought him to Egypt was that he came to lead a revolution he did not participate in. Millions of Egyptians took to the streets when he was in Doha, so it is not logical that he should come now and hijack the revolution, in the same manner as Khomeini did with the revolution in Iran, with support from America, Britain and France. The Islamists and the Salafists are also hijacking the revolution in Egypt, with the support of Mubarak’s men and the external forces that supported Mubarak. This is clear to see.

[Asharq al-Awsat] Some believe that the Islamist current has been successful in communicating with the people and identifying with their problems, something that other political currents have failed to do, so why shouldn’t the Islamists take their opportunity?

[El Saadawi] Let us consider the Muslim Brotherhood, because many of them have been sacrificed and tortured in the past. Nasser killed a lot of their cadres, and they remained an outlawed group for many years, until Mubarak gave them 88 seats in the People’s Assembly [Egypt’s lower parliamentary house]. However ever since the beginning of the last century, their history is well known, as is their cooperation with British colonialist.  The Muslim Brotherhood has a well-known and well-documented history of [being in power] intermittently.  However the Muslim Brotherhood is not the problem now – well they are part of the problem – but the main problem is the Salafists, and where they came from. Who are these parties that have emerged from their ranks, where did their funding come from, and who is spending it? The Salafists in Egypt are a strange phenomenon that no one wants to talk about, and the elite – which has divided the spoils –does not want to reveal its secrets. The liberals are today welcoming the Islamists, as the electoral districts have been divided between them in advance.

[Asharq al-Awsat] So you are saying that the revolution has been broken?

[El Saadawi] No…no one will ever break the revolution, not the Brotherhood, SCAF, the political parties, not even America or Israel.

[Asharq al-Awsat] What about those who say there will be no room to talk about the legitimacy of the revolution after a legitimate parliament has been elected.  What is your opinion of that?

[El Saadawi] No…this is a lie. The Tahrir Square protestors rejected the elections and said how can we go to parliamentary elections before there is a constitution in place? How can we put the cart in front of the horse, how can we construct a building without the blueprints? The constitution – a social contract between the Egyptians – needs to be in place before we go to the elections. How can elections take place whilst there is blood in the street?

[Asharq al-Awsat] Did you vote?

[El Saadawi] Of course not, I still have an intellect and opinions.

[Asharq al-Awsat] However isn’t it true that your “intellect” and opinions have caused you to become embroiled in many crises with different political and social circles in the past, some of which have even reached the level of the courts, under the pretext of “hisbah” [Islamic accountability laws]?

[El Saadawi] This is a war against the intellectual mind, a war against myself…a doctor and thinker recognized for my knowledge and ideas across the world, and I have won numerous awards in this regard.  In the past, neither Nasser, Sadat nor Mubarak were able to buy me; I never sold out despite everything they tried in this regard.  At the time, there were many individuals of modest intelligence who were appointed as ministers or worked in ministries. Why did Nasser send me into exile? Why did Sadat put me in prison? Why did the [authorities] cooperate with the Islamists in order to enforce “hisbah”? Would the courts have taken action against me without the regime’s support of the Islamists?  That would have been impossible…the regime was with them, and the regime protected the “hisbah” laws, whilst the intellectuals were used as scapegoats.

[Asharq al-Awsat] On the subject of intellectuals, what do you think of the Islamists attempts to discredit and slander Naguib Mahfouz and his literature?

[El Saadawi] It is strange what they are doing to Naguib Mahfouz after his death.  We must realize that Mahfouz’s works can never be classified as shameful; the real shame is the practice of attempting to profiteer from religion.  Mahfouz’s novels revealed the flaws of society and this can never be considered wrong, but lying is wrong. What is shameful is considering a woman’s image to be taboo, whilst at the same time promoting her as a parliamentary candidate. What is happening is that virtue becomes vice, vice becomes virtue, and ordinary people are left traumatized by the whole experience.

[Asharq al-Awsat] What about the position of the elite during this strife?

[El Saadawi] The elite are divided into two groups. Firstly, there are those who fear being labeled as infidels by the Islamist current, and secondly, there are those who pay lip service to the Islamists in order to secure the best positions.

[Asharq al-Awsat] You have spent your life defending freedom, especially women’s freedoms. With public opinion now moving towards a more conservative ideology and culture, are you afraid your life’s work has been in vain?

[El Saadawi] On the contrary, what is happening now gives meaning to all that I have said in the past and what I will say in the future. What I would like to make clear now is that transforming the conflict into a battle solely with the Islamists is a big mistake.  My battle is not only with the Islamists, because the question that must be asked is: what are the Islamists a product of?  Who brought the Islamists here?  Who wants them [here]?

[Asharq al-Awsat] What about the Muslim Brotherhood?  They are hardly a product of the moment; they have been active in the Egyptian political scene for more than 82 years.

[El Saadawi] Yes this is true, but who has encouraged them? Why have the liberals, the left-wing, and all those calling for division of religion and the state found that nobody is listening to them?  Egypt is a country steeped in a liberal, civil, enlightened trend; Egypt is not a state to be governed by the Muslim Brotherhood or the Salafists. So what is the reason behind these disappointing developments?

[Asharq al-Awsat] In your opinion, will history consider the incomplete 25 January revolution as a mere “flash in the pan”, in the same manner as the incomplete Orabi Revolution, which ultimately was a failed revolt?

[El Saadawi] In my opinion this would be very difficult. However, let us study the Orabi Revolution, how it was aborted, and how its momentum was contaminated. The reputation of the rebels in Egypt was tainted by the stigma of receiving foreign funding, food supplies and so on. Today we find that we have actually returned to some of the features of the Orabi Revolution, because this is a successful way of aborting revolutions.

[Asharq al-Awsat] Is this not the fault of the rebels?

[El Saadawi] Of course it is their fault, but not all the rebels, in the sense that the body of the revolution is sound, but the head, or the elite of the revolution, is corrupt. However, the revolution will continue and the Tahrir Square protests will continue.

[Asharq al-Awsat] What is your take on the Tahrir Square protestors ’ongoing rejection of the Ganzouri government?

[El Saadawi] This government is fundamentally illegitimate, and thus Ganzouri himself is illegitimate. I do not believe in any legitimacy other than that of the revolution, freedom, dignity, esteemed values and social justice. This is what we are calling for with the loudest voices. I do not and will not believe in any legitimacy that is contrary to the revolution. How can a revolution take place without revolutionary legitimacy? What about the price that the young people have paid during this revolution? The young people who have been killed or those who have lost their eyes? These elections and this government have taken place over the dead bodies of the martyrs, and at the expense of the protestors’ eyes. Kamal Ganzouri himself kept silent during the Mubarak era, when speaking out was a duty!